Have you had a chance to hear our recent podcast with Zach Kenney? Listen to the audio here, or search for Estimate Rocket Radio on any podcast app. Enjoy the transcript below of our conversation!
Kathy Droste
Hey, everyone, and welcome to Estimate Rocket radio. My name is Kathleen. I'm the Director of Sales here at Estimate Rocket and I am joined by my very dynamic co-host, Chris shank. He is the leader of Education and Engagement here at Estimate Rocket. Hi, Chris, are you excited for today?
Chris Shank
Yeah, I think this is going to be a smart conversation.
Kathy Droste
Oh, man, you know, I hate to be gushy, you know, over people, but I'm really gushy about Zack Kenny. He is truly, you know, everyone says they're an expert. This young man has so much knowledge on how to master and be an expert in the painting industry. He really blew me away. And besides that, he wants to share what he understands about the mastery of the craft of painting.
Chris Shank
It's really fun to talk with Zack about where he came from, where he's going, he challenges everyone to think about what's coming up ahead that you may not have anticipated. For him. It is becoming president of his company bringing in a Director of Operations. A lot of people have a lot of questions about that. But he's always pushing the evolving edge of his company. He's always increasing the Craftsman skills of his employees. He's training other people on super premium painting. He's training people on how to market partnering with some really cool tools. This guy's just advancing in every way possible. I think there's a lot to learn from him.
Kathy Droste
Hi, Zack, and welcome to Estimate Rocket radio.
Chris Shank
We are excited to have you on. You know, we were just talking right before this podcast started about how impressed we are with just what you've done in your business in your life. I'm always impressed talking with you, I feel like you kind of know how to get to the next level. And you know how to compete at that next level, to get to the next level after that, because the game changes every time you grow, and you reach some new new milestone, there's something different. That happens, there's a new poll of competitors, your product probably has to shift a little bit, your team has to shift a little bit. And I feel like you either you have a strategy, or you're really good at creating new strategies as you get to these places. But anyway, we're gonna talk a little bit about that. But let me just ask right off so you can tell people what's new with CK painting, and you know, you're growing influencer activities all the time. So how's that going?
Zach Kenney
It's been exciting. I love getting up and going to work every day because things are changing so fast. So last year was a big growth year for us, we tripled our revenue, which is obviously really painful. And so there's a lot of growth that had to happen this year to sort of catch up with that. So I would say, things are a lot calmer and more profitable this year. As we kept sales down and sort of got our systems in place, and then the social media stuff is starting to take off as well.
Chris Shank
Which has already started to take off! What you've been doing just skyrocketed and to think it's now taking off. That must be like you tripling your revenue. You just said that one small little phrase. I'm like, what?
Zach Kenney
It was pretty wild. I just didn't realize I could monetize my following the way I could. And now that we are it's another revenue stream for the company.
Kathy Droste
Amazing. Well, now you have me interested in I want to follow you. So as soon as we get off this podcast, I'll be adding you to my Instagram account. I wonder if you know, you've recently changed your role at your company. This is a big deal. You're now the president and you have just hired a director of operations. How did that whole process happen? What was your mindset change that made you feel like You know what, I need to really do this?
Zach Kenney
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing is, I'm pretty aware, hyper aware maybe of my strengths and weaknesses. And I know that I'm really good at some stuff. And I also have some big weaknesses, and organization and follow through and details and all the little stuff is not my strong suit. So I think we survived to get to this point. But there's somebody who's far better at running the day to day operations, and staying on top of little details than I am. And so when we got to a revenue size, where we could afford to hire somebody to do that role, it's sort of a, it's a one step backwards to go 10 steps forwards, I would say, it's a lot of overhead. And right now, revenue was at it's, it's a little harder to, it's not as awesomely profitable of a company with this overhead position. But the idea is that in the future, we can grow a lot larger, a lot quicker. With somebody doing this
Kathy Droste
role. Well, can I tell you what a really great coach said to me? I want to say this was about 20 years ago, find the right person, and then figure out how to pay them. So, you know, good people come along, once in a great while, so good for you. You did exactly that. Wow. And it takes courage.
Zach Kenney
Yeah, for me, you know, I love that saying that people change when the pain of change is less than the pain of staying the same. And I think that that's just human nature. And it was just becoming as things grew as fast as they did. It was a really messy, really, headache filled year. We're still to this day, like yesterday, we were still dealing with some of the fallout from the lack of systems as we scaled, and we're doing huge, multi $100,000 projects. And if you make a mistake on a project like that, it's not a small fix, and it's expensive. And so there were just a lot of inefficiencies and weaknesses in our systems. And so the pain of change didn't seem so painful. Wow.
Chris Shank
Two good quotes there from both you guys. Awesome. I think we're looking for secrets. Everybody's always looking for the secrets. How do you do it, you see somebody doing phenomenal things, but you're reminding us that it is not without pain, you know, it's not without some struggle there. And learning how to navigate that I think can be very important, but learning how to expect that or maybe anticipate it could be part of it, that the pain could be an indicator of, hey, you know, this is time, it's time for something? I don't know.
Well, let me ask you, you know, I have my questions. When I think about what you're going through and what you're getting to. What kind of questions do people ask you? And they think about things like, wow, I would, I would love to step out of the day to day, I would love to have somebody run my company, and we just give oversight. And I'm oversimplifying here. I'm sure everybody does when they think about it. How do you respond to that? How do you tell people what it's all about how to get it done? Maybe even debunking some myths about what happens at that level?
Zach Kenney
Yeah, people ask me a lot. Like, what's the one thing that's the inflection point?
Chris Shank
That's what we want?
Zach Kenney
Yeah. I mean, I would say there's probably one inflection point that is the most, the biggest tipping point in my business was when I stopped painting. I took myself out of the field one day, I am a master at what I do. I've been doing it since I was 14. Everything you see on our page is all stuff I've figured out how to do and obsess over like decades of my life. And it's my favorite thing to do. But I realized, like I can only make someone, I couldn't run a business. I was drowning slowly, while putting out unbelievable work and making no money. And so when I just said, I'm getting out of the field, I'm a kindergartener running a business.
I'm a master at painting, but I have to go be a business owner. And I have to just go sit in the uncomfortability of like, not being good at what I'm doing. And I'm not going to sit around and do nothing to try to tell you like if you can like and I had no kids, I wasn't married. I didn't have a lot of responsibility. So I was able to take two steps back. But I was just all day long, I had to fill my time, and I wasn't going to paint. So I had to start reading books and learning about how to run a business. And just thinking from above, when you're in the field painting every day, you're just looking at the wall. And it's so hard to then go to a new mindset and see your business from the 50,000 foot view and look out two years and think about competitive advantages and strategy and all those things that are essential to running a great business. Like I had to get out of the field Hmm, that's,
Chris Shank
That's a solid tip, I think. Yeah, of course, that scares a lot of people. But it doesn't sound easy at all. It's almost like, Hey, you want the one thing? Here's the one thing, and now it opens up 10 new questions. You wanted one thing,
Zach Kenney
it's the one thing, but it's, it's, it's super simple, but it's really hard. And I think that you have to be like, like, you have to be a business owner, like studying business is a different game than painting for a living. Like, it's just different. And business is a game of investing, and taking a step back to go two steps forward. And, and when you can understand it like that, it was like, Okay, I'm just going to take a hit. And then like, there will be a lag time, but then we will, will exponentially grow because of this. Mm hmm.
So it definitely takes it takes I'm, I'm also a big like, harnessing your biology, like don't fight your biology, like I am somebody who does really well with their back against the wall, I have to sort of like create false, like time structures or put my back up against the wall. So I will perform at a higher level. I do really well, with that I do really well with high risk situations, not everybody does. So I don't know that it's the best way for everyone. It just worked for me.
Kathy Droste
And that kind of leads us to our next question, because I guess I'd like to know what companies should not even think about this at a particular time.
Zach Kenney
Well, I mean, I think you have to have enough revenue, you have to be profitable enough to lose the revenue generating part of the owner, right? Like the owner, I was the guy making the most money for the company, for sure. Right? We always are. So you have to decide, am I cut out to do this, like am I really going to be a business owner, and own that for the rest of my career. It's like you have to really like it, it's a full commitment. I think there's lots of guys who are good at painting who paint for a living.
And that's great, there's a great business model there, those guys should be raising their rates significantly. And building up, you know, because their suppliers are small. And if they can increase demand at all, you could keep your prices pretty high as a small guy. And never have to worry about all this stuff. But if you want to build a business, I think you have to go learn about it, I read every book, I can get my hands on listen to every podcast, I could
Kathy Droste
fail, you know, it's funny when we talk to our customers, in when particularly when I get to speak with our customers, I tell them that we actually go through the same exact things every single day, even though you're painting, and I'm running a software company, we're going through the same exact things when you get up in the morning, Zach, I bet the top five things that are on my mind or on your mind, you know, we have to think about team building, finding the right people that have good core values, you know, it's so much more than just what exactly you're doing. To sell to the customer. I'm selling software, or you're selling a painting service. But we're both if we're doing it right, we're both thinking about the same thing every single day. Yeah,
Chris Shank
The question too, is, I mean, if you're, some people are at that point where they can start thinking about it, how do they know? How do they know they're at that point, they're ready to get out of the field, they feel like maybe the revenue is where it needs to be? What else is there because I know there's probably people that hear you talking and I'm hearing and I'm a big reader, but going from doing a thing that you're really really good at to also learning some what it means to be a business owner and reading business.
I mean, that's also learning in the abstract a little bit if you're reading and not everybody. How many painters do you know that like to read, you know, maybe it's podcasts? Maybe? I'm just asking you like, are there other things? Is that the only way? What would you say to people if they're like, Ooh, that sounds super intimidating. I don't know if I could do that. What's your thoughts? Yeah,
Zach Kenney
Yeah, I mean, I think everybody's going to be different. Like I, I'm a pretty extreme person. I work really hard these days to find moderation in life but like, I'm, I'm a pretty extreme guy. And so for me, yeah, I like rip the band aid went from zero to 100 and just dove in. That's not like there are ways where you could structure Okay. Mondays and Fridays. I paint and then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursdays I don't paint. And so I think you don't have to go all in but I think hardcore structure of full days is important like doing like two hours. or blocks of painting and then estimating and then oh, no, I think I'll wake up.
And every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday are my business days. And then I paint on the Monday, Friday or whatever to like, help bring revenue and keep things floating. And then, yeah, I mean, I think education is everything in life. Knowledge is power. It's, it's, it's so true. And however you can get your knowledge. I mean, I listen to books on tape audible.com was my best friend. That's how I consume mine. I think, no matter what, though we like it, as humans, we should be learning every day and growing. And so, you know, I don't think the excuse can be that I don't want to learn. You know, if that's the case, then
Kathy Droste
That's so sad. When you
Chris Shank
would you add to that peer groups? You know, I know that there's Painting Contractors Association, other Association, other CPIA. Some of the but do you feel like that's been a big part of your growth? And I, if I remember, right, when I was at PCA, you came in, but you are already. You're already on fire. So I don't know if you already had peer groups you're in? Or if that was kind of the first, maybe it wasn't that big of a stepping stone for you. But what do you think about?
Zach Kenney
No, I mean, it was huge. I was on fire with a passion and a thing. But like, I didn't have nearly the direction that I have today, or understanding of business. I have today, if it wasn't for the PCA. I went to that first Expo and met a bunch of people that are now my friends to this day. I talk to painters all the time. Yeah, it's like it's my essence in my life. So yeah, surrounding yourself with a bunch of like minded, I deeply believe you are who you surround yourself with the seven people you hang out with most or whatever. I'm pretty extreme about that as well. Like, I'm very cautious of who I let's who I spend any amount of time with. I'm very cautious of any type of information that I let touch my brain. You know, as far as social media, I don't watch the news. Like I stay, I am very cautious of what type of information gets to touch my brain because it affects us. We're social creatures, it's going to affect how we see the world. Yeah, well,
Kathy Droste
you know who I think you'd like following. Zack is Dan Martell. He is more of a coach for software companies. But I'd like you to follow him because I think you could learn a lot from him. And he's a super cool guy. And he's very much like you. So Zack, tell us how can people learn more about you and follow you and contact you if they want to? How can they do that?
Zach Kenney
Yeah, Zi K painting on Instagram. That's like the best place. There's a link in our link tree where we teach classes on fine finished painting called Z k finishing school. We've been doing those since early COVID. So I think we've gotten 20 ish 25 classes now, usually 10 to 15 people in person in Boston. And we nerd out about high level finishing concepts. And I've taught housewives how to paint furniture. And I've taught master painters how to take their painting to another level. So it's a great way to see everything that we do. If you want to learn what we do is he kFS I have a podcast I did 100 episodes, two to three hour long form. It's called Z k live. We just got confirmation, we have a sponsor for it. And we're starting it again in September. So once a week, starting in September, z k live, we'll be back. Really excited about that. Okay.
Kathy Droste
And we're right outside of Boston as well. So if you ever want to meet in Boston, let us know. Yeah, absolutely.
Chris Shank
And I know you do a lot of training on social media too, right? I used to, I used to not as much anymore.
Zach Kenney
People , it's weird. People will spend $2,000 to come for two days to learn how to paint. But they don't want to spend money to learn how to do social media, even though that makes you so much money. So I just didn't put a lot of effort into it now. There was a lot more demand for the painting classes.
Chris Shank
And I see stuff on that popping up all over the place, people demonstrating what they're learning. And they're like, thank you. I don't know if z k what do you call it again? A
Zach Kenney
finishing school on old school women finishing schools.
Chris Shank
I liked that. I see your work. I see their work. And I'm always done. I mean, I zoom up on any pictures. I'm like, how do they get that so mirror like some of it and it's just very high end. It's very cool for people. Yeah, if they're looking for ways to beat the pricing game. This is one way to do that. And it's it's pretty impressive. So
Zach Kenney
Yeah, we've got it down to a science now we're teaching core concepts that can apply to everybody's businesses. I just really want people a year from taking the class to do things significantly different than before the class. I think everybody comes and gets hyped up around a bunch of nerd painters for a weekend. But we're really trying to teach concepts that can be applied to all sorts of paint jobs.
Chris Shank
We'll put a link to that in the show notes. Zach, it was great having you on. We hope to see more of you maybe on our podcast that just kind of continues the conversation with you. Thanks for being on.
Zach Kenney
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Kathy Droste
Thank you, Zack.